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- Path: news.mcs.net!usenet
- From: ejszul@obscurity.pd.mcs.net (Eric Szulczewski)
- Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.misc
- Subject: Re: The March Amiga?
- Date: Sat, 27 Jan 96 07:47:27 CST
- Organization: Principle of Obscurity BBS
- Distribution: world
- Message-ID: <19960127.7D8A918.72E2@obscurity.pd.mcs.net>
- NNTP-Posting-Host: obscurity.pd.mcs.net
-
-
- In a message dated 01-22-96 22-20 Gary Alan Peake writes:
-
- GP> >George Noel pooh-poohed my membership in Team AMIGA because he thinks
- GP> >that I'm anti-Amiga. Hell, I don't even own another box other than my
- GP> >2000! And I don't think that we're seeing different leaves on the same
- GP> >tree, but we're disagreeing in the type of fertilizer that AT's
- GP> >spreading on that tree. You think it's SuperGrow; I think it's
- GP> >bullshit.
-
- GP> It's not the questions that upset me, but rather the terminology.
- GP> 'Bullshit'? That's kinda strong ... for someone who believes in and is
- GP> supporting the Amiga. That's where the rub comes in ...
-
- Personally, I don't think it's strong enough. I have a rather potent
- bullshit detector, and it goes off every time one of them says
- something here or puts out a press release that says essentially
- nothing.
-
- Also, I'm sorta flattered in a rather perverse kind of way. I'm
- powerful enough to kill the Amiga on my lonesome with my little
- criticisms of AT management? Well, thanks. I guess that what I'm
- trying to do is force AT not to make the same mistakes that C= did,
- especially in marketing. If they even listen to what people are saying
- here (and it's not just me), maybe we've done something, instead of
- just kissing their collective asses and patting them on the back.
-
- GP> >That's where most of our differences lie in. You're a natural
- GP> >optimist; I'm not only a natural pessimist, but a cynic as well. I
- GP> >believe that only with specific correct moves, most of which I've
- GP> >outlined in our discussion over the months we've had it, can AT get any
- GP> >sort of foot in the door, especially in NA. They have to design,
- GP> >build, and properly market the proverbial better mousetrap, and
- GP> >especially concentrate on the marketing. I don't begrudge them the
- GP> >cash they're earning; I just begrudge the fact that they seem to be
- GP> >unwilling to spend money to make money (in the area of marketing, that
- GP> >is; they've been doing it in other areas, including, apparently, R&D).
-
- GP> You are, of course, talking about 'in the North American market'? Many
- GP> times it has been said by Amiga Technologies that North America is NOT
- GP> what they are after TODAY.
-
- And that's a mistake if they want to be taken seriously in the world
- market.
-
- GP> Today they are after the European community,
- GP> R&D, and PPC. Many times they have insinuated and outright said that when
- GP> they get the necessary production, R&D, PPC and a strategic NA partner ...
- GP> we will SEE an Amiga push here. To them, I'm sure it's simple math.
-
- So why are they releasing the 4000T and Net package here in NA? Why
- not just wait until the PPC?
-
- GP> >GP> Why contract out the coding as they are?
-
- GP> >Does that scare you a bit? We're still not sure about the
- GP> >subcontractor for the OS. I'd love to know what AT told them about the
- GP> >requirements for OS4.
-
- GP> No, it doesn't 'scare' me. Dr Kittle told us here that Amiga Technologies
- GP> is in FULL CONTROL of the coding being done. There are no 'Fast Eddies'
- GP> waiting to sneak some crud into the code.
-
- What I really meant is that they handed out the coding of the OS to a
- company that no one ever heard of except in general terms when that
- name was announced here. Maybe they will put something in the code;
- maybe they won't. But you know better than to bring up Kittel as a
- reference around me.
-
- GP> >GP> Why keep fervently looking for a NA 'partner'?
-
- GP> >But in what capacity? Financial? R&D? Mass-market distribution?
- GP> >Or to eventually sell out?
-
- GP> None of the above ...
-
- And how do you know, Mystic Meg?
-
- GP> the North American 'strategic partner' will assume
- GP> responsibility for marketing and distribution of Amiga products in North
- GP> America.
-
- In other words, Escom and AT are washing their hands of the entire
- thing in NA.
-
- GP> This, too, has been said many times by Amiga Technologies people
- GP> here and in some of the speeches and press releases given.
-
- And I don't believe anything that AT says until I see concrete proof.
- Until then, I retain my right to be skeptical. And you should be a bit
- skeptical too, because if it does happen (notice I did not say "when"),
- you're the one going to be crushed.
-
- GP> >GP> Why the 'Surfer Package' (that took extra money and time)?
-
- GP> >Well, to make money, for one thing. Only Oracle seems to be entering
- GP> >that type of market right now. The problem is that by providing a
- GP> >full-fledged 1200 with the Net suite, the price is significantly higher
- GP> >than Oracle's product. And that Net suite had better be good, or the
- GP> >Surfer package (what an awful name!) will fail.
-
- GP> So even the good things they do are criticized?
-
- Who says it's good? Not me; I've already stated that I don't like the
- 1200 to begin with. I think it has too many technical flaws and it's
- severely out of date.
-
- And with the emphasis on the software in the package, their competition
- doesn't become Oracle; it becomes Netscape Navigator. That means that
- the software has to look as good and behave as nicely as Navigator (no
- matter what the underlying OS is) to attract the customers.
-
- GP> 'What an awful name'? Please .... let's hear YOUR name for the package?
-
- At least my name won't be a complete cliche and overused piece of
- jargon. How about "Amiga WorldLink" or "Amiga Presence"? I think that
- both would have more appeal than The S-Word.
-
- GP> >They may have some sort of plan, but I'm still not sure what it is, AT
- GP> >isn't volunteering information, and I have reservations about the parts
- GP> >we do know about. And I'm not alone, Gary. You can tell just from the
- GP> >posts here.
-
- GP> Oh? How many of the twelve people here do NOT think Amiga Technologies has
- GP> a plan? How many of the twelve DO think Amiga Technologies has a plan?
- GP> (HINT: See Amiga Technologies speeches and press releases for plans).
-
- 1) There are more than twelve people here.
-
- 2) I take all press releases and speeches with a grain of salt, to say
- the least.
-
- GP> >There are questions that have to be asked when it comes to this
- GP> >subject. We as Amiga users have incredible power over the decisions
- GP> >made at AT due to the fact that we're the ones buying this system.
-
- GP> Think about the absurdity of this statement! Because we 'bought' the
- GP> system in the past, Amiga Technologies is now 'obligated' to listen to us?
-
- No, that's not what I said. I'm talking about the free market. We can
- choose to buy or not buy a product, and since we here are loyal Amiga
- users, we can be assumed to be the basis of future purchases of Amiga
- products.
-
- GP> >But can AT cut through the M$ brainwash factory that "more power =
- GP> >better"? Or will the public see the 1200 package (I refuse to call it
- GP> >"Surfer") as a toy?
-
- GP> Refuse to use it's name, that's your perogative, but it's STILL the name.
-
- No, it's an example of how much imagination AT "marketing" has: none.
-
- GP> How about if we call you Ralph?
-
- If it's my last name, that's fine. I've driven people nuts for 31
- years by keeping my last name, and I liked it, but maybe it's time to
- move on now.
-
- GP> And how many 'toys' (as you like to put it) can access the nets 'out
- GP> of the box'?
-
- Please read what I wrote. I said, "Will the public see the 1200...as a
- toy?" That whole paragraph wasn't a criticism; it was a legitimate
- concern. You misread it; now apologize for once.
-
- GP> I happen to think it's a fabulous idea. We'll see soon enough if
- GP> I'm right or wrong.
-
- Well, you've got your bets in on "right", I've got mine in on "wrong".
- I still believe that I'm correct.
-
- GP> > >1) By buying the 1200s and 4000Ts out there, we are contributing to the
- GP> > >coffers of AT's R&D efforts. But do we want outdated machines?
- GP> > >Especially with the PPC announcement. Amiga owners are patient by
- GP> > >nature when it comes to the system. How many people won't wait a year?
-
- GP> >GP> See, made my point. We WILL wait a year. They are/should be chasing
- GP> new, >GP> entry level buyers who will expand into that new PPC later on.
-
- GP> >These are rhetorical questions, Gary...
-
- GP> So only you can make points or answer them?
-
- No, but you took each discrete part and answered them, when they were
- an intact set of three rhetorical points that did not need to be
- answered. I did not solicit answers for these, nor did I wish them to
- be answered. They were there to make a point and to get people to
- think that this scenario might just be possible.
-
- GP> >I didn't make a point. I asked a question about current Amiga owners,
- GP> >since they're the only ones who seem to know about the 1200s/4000Ts.
-
- GP> No 'new' buyers have bought a 1200 or 4000? That's strange!
-
- No, they haven't. And it's not strange when we, as Amiga owners, are
- the only ones who know about them. Look at the posts regarding the
- "display" of Amigas in Escom shops in Britain.
-
- GP> And if there are 'some' new buyers, where did they hear about the
- GP> Amiga?
-
- Word of mouth from Amiga owners, since they haven't put in any
- promotion, even in Europe
-
- GP> You have apparently totally missed what Amiga Technologies
- GP> is doing ...
-
- How can I "miss" nothing?
-
- GP> filling up pent-up demand AND trying to attract NEW
- GP> buyers with the Magic & Surfer packages.
-
- Ah, yes, those two "packages". On the first, AT admitted that they
- hadn't tested ANY of the software in it, and the second is vaporware
- until it hits the shelves.
-
- GP> >Again, rhetorical questions. But you must admit that it's cheaper not
- GP> >to do R&D if these models are selling.
-
- GP> Wrong rhetorical answer! It is death to NOT do R&D and apparently Amiga
- GP> Technologies is well aware of this.
-
- Who's the one saying that AT is concentrating on the short-term only,
- and that's the correct way to behave? You're a hypocrite, Peake.
-
- (Hmm, a thought has come to mind here. You're being awfully
- vociferous, Gary, and that's making me mad as well. I've been under a
- lot of job-related stress recently, but I'm going to try to calm down
- and discuss this rationally. Can you do the same?)
-
- GP> > >3) If we wait and not buy the systems available now, will AT go
- GP> > >belly-up, in which case we'll never see a new Amiga system? It looks
- GP> > >like Escom is looking to see whether or not AT will sink or float, and
- GP> > >if it starts to sink, will Escom pull the trigger?
-
- GP> >GP> Nope, too much invested now.
-
- GP> >Guess what I'm going to say? You didn't have to answer these. I just
- GP> >wanted to clarify the questions that a lot of people are asking.
-
- GP> Again, of the twelve people here, how many are asking these questions?
-
- Well, let's see, there's me, Byron Montgomery, Paul Chan...that's three
- out of the 12 right there, which is a dissatisfaction and skepticism
- rate of 25%. Not good customer "satisfaction", huh?
-
- GP> >So a corporation is going to keep a money-losing subsidiary afloat in
- GP> >order to lose more money? I hope the German tax code is as lax about
- GP> >businesses as the US's is. That's the only reason I'd do something
- GP> >like that.
-
- GP> Who has said that Amiga Technologies is losing money? I haven't heard or
- GP> read that anywhere. Facts speak volumes! I do believe that Amiga
- GP> Technologies is lessening the 'load' on Escom's finances at the moment!
-
- Let's see, they drained, by YOUR OWN ESTIMATE, US$85 million over
- calendar year 1995. Did AT pull in US$85 million in sales in calendar
- 1995? Debits are greater than credits; to me, that means a loss. Yes,
- they're "lessening the load" by making Escom's wallet lighter.
-
- GP> >GP> >I hope that none of these are true, and that AT does have the best
- GP> in >GP> >mind for the Amiga, but illustrated like that, it is a no-win
- GP> >GP> >situation. The question has to be put out, and I hope that
- GP> >GP> >Kittel/Bourdin can refute this line of argument.
-
- GP> No need for them to. From the CEO of Escom on down, they have ALL refuted
- GP> the questions BEFORE you thought to ask them. How many times have they ALL
- GP> said that Escom/Amiga Technologies is in 'for the long run'?
-
- And I don't believe them one damn bit.
-
- GP> >Notice you didn't respond to this section, Gary...
-
- GP> I didn't see any reason to. Too far fetched.
-
- For you, maybe, but we all saw the financial shenanigans of Gould and
- Ali, and we all see what Spindler has done to the once-proud
- competition and brother in Motorola Inside. Nothing is too far-fetched
- for the computer business.
-
- GP> >It's not "excellent", dammit! It's a deficient computer system from an
- GP> >engineering standpoint. It's a very draconian proposition. It's feast
- GP> >or famine with a 1200; either a user gets sick of its low capabilities
- GP> >and lack of ease in upgrading and ditches Amiga, or upgrades. A great
- GP> >gamble, but one that could pay off.
-
- GP> Read 'in context' PLEASE!!! 'It's an excellent ENTRY LEVEL COMPUTER' and
- GP> it is!!
-
- To me, a good "entry level system" makes the user want to expand it
- after getting used to it. I've heard tales of people who want to throw
- 1200s out the window when they find out how slow the thing is (through
- regular use) and how much it'll take to get it to a point where it's
- reasonably powerful.
-
- GP> I don't know engineering from mud samples, but I will tell you
- GP> that from a users standpoint, almost everything out right now is draconian
- GP> and an engineering nightmare!
-
- There are nine circles to Hell, Gary. The 1200 is in about the 7th.
- The 2000 and 3000 are in about the 4th.
-
- GP> Took a mid-level computer smart
- GP> (professional person with a college degree) about 6 hours to finally get
- GP> NT configured right for her 486/66.
-
- Only 6 hours? That's pretty good for NT. It took me 12 hours to get
- OS/2 set up for a friend, and that didn't include the little tweaks
- we had to do afterward for a period of about a month or so.
-
- GP> Care to hear some of her woes with modems in her Packard Bell?
-
- I have friends who own PBs. You don't have to tell me about them,
- please. The worst BIOSes in the PC world, bar none.
-
- GP> Horror stories abound on EVERY computer if you
- GP> are into that. By the same token, I hear many stories of how great all the
- GP> same computers are to other people? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder,
- GP> but the ugly stick can hit anyone without notice!
-
- And I'm the walking ugly stick for AT. Just playing devil's advocate,
- Gary m'dear. It's my job to ask the tough questions and make the
- points others don't want to see, like yourself. See, I've got you in a
- state of apoplexy because you DON'T want to hear this stuff, not
- because it's not true.
-
- GP> >But you didn't answer my point about NA, did you? That was only the
- GP> >purpose of my statement, after all. Until telecommunications systems
- GP> >in the EU are fully deregulated and demonopolized, telecom there won't
- GP> >grow as fast as you think. My proof is Britain; it's virtually the
- GP> >only point I agreed with the Thatcherites.
-
- GP> Point answered then ... it has been said that the PPC will be here around
- GP> CEBit (March 1997). More rumor than fact, I'm sure. But that's what we
- GP> have to go with at the moment. If this isn't soon enough for you, then we
- GP> are defeated! I am patient enough to wait for Amiga Technologies and see
- GP> what we see.
-
- Well, remember a number of months ago on Fido, I said that I expected
- the PPC Amigas sometime in 3rd Quarter 1997 to nail the Christmas
- market. If they're on sale in 2nd Quarter 1997 (just after CeBIT), I'd
- be pleasantly shocked. As long as there is an announcement and a
- "finished machine" on display there with a firm release date, that will
- satisfy me in regard to the PC.
-
- GP> In the meantime, my 3000/25 is humming along nicely on 2.1
- GP> ... I may in fact go to 3.1 any day now. After that I am planning on
- GP> contacting Softwood about a PPC card for my 3000. Then, the next step is
- GP> the PPC Amiga for me.
-
- Well, my 2000/25 is going along nicely on 3.1. My next two upgrades
- will be a Picasso II (already have the flicker fixer) and either an 060
- or a PPC card (depending on whether they're going to make one for the
- 2000 or not). After that, the PPC Amiga. Despite my reservations
- about AT, I'm staying loyal. I feel that this computer transcends the
- owners of the OS. Remember, Gary, AT does not equal Amiga.
-
- GP> If you are looking for a BIG PUSH into North America beginning tomorrow,
- GP> don't hold your breath. Amiga Technologies has said more than once that it
- GP> ain't gonna happen that way. The PPC is their inroad into the North
- GP> American market. THAT competes!!
-
- As I said, they have their best shots with the PPC. However, they
- should still make mass marketing deals and ads for the 4000T in NA to
- (re)familiarize the market with the name "Amiga".
-
- Let me give an example, if I may do so. I called a national
- Net server in order to get an account earlier this week because a
- friend of mine who had ordered asked (out of the goodness of his heart)
- if they supported Amigas and had a software suite, and this company
- said yes. When I called to order, I asked exactly what the Amiga suite
- consisted of. The clerk answered "Well, Netscape, Eudora, Trumpet..."
- At this point, I interrupted him and said, "All of those programs are
- for MS-DOS. They're not for Amiga." This flustered the little dweeb,
- and he said, "Well, I'm going to check", and proceeded to hang up on
- me. The second operator I got seemed to be familiar with the name, but
- insisted that there was a version of Netscape for the Amiga. The only
- thing I can figure out is that they thought I meant "Aptiva".
-
- AT either has their heads in the sand or up their collective asses if
- they think that bringing in the PPC cold will do it for NA. A
- preemptive marketing campaign for the PPC once the release date is
- definite is mandatory.
-
- GP> > >No, what I really want to see, Gary, was your justification on the
- GP> > >technological end of it all. I wanted to see you fly through hoops
- GP> > >saying that this was the greatest thing in the universe and that
- GP> > >everyone at AT were geniuses for putting the 1300 out. However, I
- GP> > >don't think you'd really do that, even if you are the most gormless AT
- GP> > >camp follower on occasion. But the disguises are off. If AT does the
- GP> > >1300 for money, that's perfectly fine and a good thing in the minds of
- GP> > >everyone here. But trying to disguise that with other reasons would be
- GP> > >disingenuous. Glad you and I both see it that way.
-
- GP> Money is what corporations exist for ... no other reason! Only a fool
- GP> would believe otherwise. This said, there are a lot of Amiga fanatics at
- GP> Amiga Technologies. They feel just as deeply about the Amiga as some of us
- GP> do. Some people do DO things out of altruism.
-
- I feel happy for you that you still believe in the innate goodness of
- mankind. I don't.
-
- GP> If you fail to believe the last statement, get a look at the 'deathbed
- vigil'.
- GP> I've never been fortunate enough to actually see it, but I have heard
- GP> that many tears were shed over the Amiga by those who put their
- GP> hearts and souls into it.
-
- The Deathbed Vigil, though, dealt with the people at C= in the lower
- and middle management levels and tech people, who really did bleed
- straight into the Agnuses and Denises. And none of the people in it
- are involved with AT's efforts.
-
- GP> >GP> TEAM AMIGA is a grassroots
- GP> >GP> movement designed to provide
- GP> >GP> support to all Amiga users
- GP> >GP> and to Amiga Technologies!
-
- GP> >Could you please define "support"? Is constructive criticism part of
- GP> >your definition (you yourself have even acknowledged that my criticism
- GP> >has been uniformly constructive)?
-
- GP> I am a believer in 'constructive criticism' and want my employees at work
- GP> to use lots of it with me. BUT, there is a point when criticism becomes
- GP> destructive rather than constructive. My definition of 'support' is
- GP> probably much different from yours I would think? Support ... buying of
- GP> products, complimenting the good points, suggesting work arounds for
- GP> points we disagree on in a 'constructive, unobtrusive, non-belligerant
- GP> way, word of mouth advertising, etc.
-
- No, that just about covers my definition. However, the complication
- sets in on "complimenting the good points". What you and I believe are
- good points about AT's moves differ greatly, as you can tell. Just to
- go over it, I don't like what I've heard about the 1200+/1300/whatever,
- and I have severe reservations about the Net package. So the PPC is
- next on the list. When the specs, release date, and price come out, I
- will make a judgement, and if I like them, then I will praise AT for
- their efforts.
-
- GP> What I do is this: show my agreement with the good things that Amiga
- GP> Technologies is doing by supporting them here (much to the dislike of
- GP> several),
-
- And if I see a good thing, I will compliment them on it, as I've said.
- So far, though, I haven't.
-
- GP> buy Amiga products from 3rd party vendors that are supporting us
- GP> by being here,
-
- And God bless them for sticking with the platform during the Time of
- Apocalypse.
-
- GP> showing and telling people every chance I get about the
- GP> things my Amiga's have done for years with ease,
-
- I've had at least two friends go to OS/2 because, and I quote, "It's
- the nearest thing we've seen to an Amiga for the PC platform". They
- have reservations about buying Amigas due to price and software
- availability.
-
- GP> and using email to show
- GP> my discomfort with things that I don't feel are productive for me and the
- GP> people I know that use an Amiga, advertising with my taglines with every
- GP> message I post here and on Fidonet, helping people that I am qualified to
- GP> help get around problems that someone helped me with in the past.
-
- Right now, we only have each other. I know that both you and I see us
- as a tight-knit community, but one made up of individuals with
- differing opinions. Those opinions have to be respected. The last
- thing they can be is ignored.
-
- (Do you know that we always end our messages with notes of mutual
- understanding and "support" to each other, and then we begin our next
- ones behaving like two rats in heat?)
-
- GP> >The last thing Team AMIGA should be,
- GP> >and I think that even Rick would agree, is a hotbed of monolithic,
- GP> >uncritical opinion. If Amiga owners didn't have differences with the
- GP> >company that produced the machine, we'd be abandoning an eleven-year
- GP> >tradition.
-
- GP> Oh, this is true. Amiga users have always been a horde of loud-mouthed,
- GP> muck-raking, swasbuckling fanatics just waiting to pounce on the next
- GP> announcement of granduer from the Amigas' parent company. BUT, let one
- GP> clone user parry a sword of dis-honor our way and they'd find his/her head
- GP> swinging limbless from the nearest tree!
-
- Damn straight. Think of it as hating the government but loving the
- country. Fly your Amiga flag high, everybody.
-
- Eric Szulczewski
- ejszul@obscurity.pd.mcs.net
- (soon to change)
- The Devil's Advocate
-
-
- * Offline Orbit 0.75a *
-